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Rodbolt
10-27-2010, 10:08 AM
I am amazed at the apparent lack of interest / apathy regarding what has happened to "our" Hobby Car Manual, sold off without any recourse to or consultation with the NZHRA membership.
Read the other thread and add your 2CW to what the NZHRA executive have done to our sport and hobby.

3 Windows
10-27-2010, 10:42 AM
Come on rodbolt, the NZHRA are NOT there for us, It is the play thing of a select few, They don't give a rats ass about the members.

That's pretty clear to me, just look at the Pre 49 issues.
Would seem to me, they have zone meetings, then do as they please.

I cant wait for some body to roll out the Good Guys here, yes it's a business but at least it will be clear it's a business.

Or we start a Pre 49's national body, cant be much worst than what we have now.

GBH
10-27-2010, 03:04 PM
after reading the press release it would appear that there might be some justification for the transfer of the manual to the LVVTA - some points to consider

1) the issue of the manuals' lack of recognition in the current law is a legitimate issue and as such had to be addressed somehow - as a builder could use it in good faith, but there was no where in the law that said it had any standing in the certification process, is selling/transferring the manual to LVVTA the best solution? who knows, we never got to have the informed debate about it and see that all aspects and effects were considered

2) My understanding is the LVVTA is 67% owned by NZHRA (stand to be corrected on that but that's how it was when it was formed) so to some degree NZHRA has sold the manual to itself, and being the majority share hold of LVVTA must retain a reasonable amount of control over the manual - does this make a difference, is it ultimately good or bad? Again some debate would have been nice!

3) Lack of consultation - this must be considered the real problem here, as alluded to by others in previous commentary, the zone meeting system is somewhat of a farce and the organisation has become very distant from it's member clubs (bring back club delegates and real interacting AGM's i say!!) there may be some very well thought out rational, justification and there might even have been some thorough analysis and debate but where?? certainly no sign of it in NZHRA meeting minutes nor as someone else asked does it appear to have been an issue worthy of members voting on

I don't know if the transfer/sale of the Manual to LVVTA is or isn't the correct option (not enough info from NZHRA at this point) - what i do know is that it's a complete surprise to most NZHRA members, and i don't believe many member like this sort of surprise

Noddy
10-27-2010, 03:23 PM
A couple of years back I was on a Leadership Programme where Sir Henry Van der Haden was a guest speaker. His presentation had the most impact on me - he spoke about Governance vs Representation. Any organisation that has to run back to its members fir every decision will go no where...

Zone Directors are there to make the best decisions for the interest of the organisation - not necessarily the members who put them there. If you don't like what they are doing then get rid of them when the time comes...

Noddy

Rodbolt
10-27-2010, 03:52 PM
Fonterra is a business.
NZHRA is an incorporated society
No comparison.
NZHRA has no effective ownership of the LVVTA.
This whole thing smells of fait accompli - it could well be that the NZHRA had no real choice in the matter, or didn't realise they had been fitted up till it was too late.

Hot Rod Todd
10-27-2010, 04:01 PM
Well, theres a Zone 9 meeting at RodBenders tonight.

NZHRA members are welcome to attend, tho only your club delegate gets to vote on any stuff that needs to be voted on. I cant remember if you have speaking rights, but in the past theres been no attempt to stop anyone having there say.

Nominal
10-27-2010, 04:05 PM
Fonterra is a business.
NZHRA is an incorporated society
No comparison.
NZHRA has no effective ownership of the LVVTA.
This whole thing smells of fait accompli - it could well be that the NZHRA had no real choice in the matter, or didn't realise they had been fitted up till it was too late.

Not really - Fonterra is a co-op owned by the farmer shareholders.

Another example - New Zealand Rugby Union is an incorporated society - anyone think that they don't run like a business for most purposes?

Nothing to stop the NZHRA owning a business like LVVTA. I don't know if they actually own it though.


I can see that the need to codify the manual legally would be an issue, but I do wonder how the system has been working up until now. Why has this arisen now?

Noddy
10-27-2010, 04:14 PM
Not really - Fonterra is a co-op owned by the farmer shareholders.

Another example - New Zealand Rugby Union is an incorporated society - anyone think that they don't run like a business for most purposes?

Nothing to stop the NZHRA owning a business like LVVTA. I don't know if they actually own it though.


I can see that the need to codify the manual legally would be an issue, but I do wonder how the system has been working up until now. Why has this arisen now?
Yep - Fonterra is a Co-op with ELECTED members running it.... Just like NZHRA in my opinion...

The point is - any organisation, be it a business, incorp society, knitting circle, won't go anywhere if the elected members can't get on with the the job of running the entity without having to run to the "owners" for every decision = FAIL. They are held accountable when it comes to voting time...

Nodz

Nominal
10-27-2010, 05:08 PM
Yep - Fonterra is a Co-op with ELECTED members running it.... Just like NZHRA in my opinion...

The point is - any organisation, be it a business, incorp society, knitting circle, won't go anywhere if the elected members can't get on with the the job of running the entity without having to run to the "owners" for every decision = FAIL. They are held accountable when it comes to voting time...

Nodz

I agree, provided that they act within the constitution of the organisation.

LIFESTYLZ
10-27-2010, 05:09 PM
Fair comment Noddy, but there are some things which have a huge inpact that should be discussed more widely.
Heck, even the Govt has Referendums for those such occassions.

Noddy
10-27-2010, 05:11 PM
Fair comment Noddy, but there are some things which have a huge inpact that should be discussed more widely.
Heck, even the Govt has Referendums for those such occassions.
And they ignore them!!! :rolleyes:

LIFESTYLZ
10-27-2010, 05:16 PM
And they ignore them!!! :rolleyes:
True .. :D

But beside the point.
Maybe an email to members for feedback before these decisions are finalized?
How hard is that?

GBH
10-27-2010, 06:10 PM
Yep - Fonterra is a Co-op with ELECTED members running it.... Just like NZHRA in my opinion...

The point is - any organisation, be it a business, incorp society, knitting circle, won't go anywhere if the elected members can't get on with the the job of running the entity without having to run to the "owners" for every decision = FAIL. They are held accountable when it comes to voting time...

Nodz

Noddy

accountable at voting time is fine, but the horse will have bolted by them - in an normal democratic scenario, major issues are the stuff of election campains so the voter knows what direction the incoming "governace" is going to take the organisation

You seem to be suggesting once elected they can do what they like - i read somewhere an interesting comment "dictatorship is perfect government as long as it makes perfect decisions" lets hope NZHRA continues to make perfect decisions then!!

Noddy
10-27-2010, 06:24 PM
Noddy

accountable at voting time is fine, but the horse will have bolted by them - in an normal democratic scenario, major issues are the stuff of election campains so the voter knows what direction the incoming "governace" is going to take the organisation

You seem to be suggesting once elected they can do what they like - i read somewhere an interesting comment "dictatorship is perfect government as long as it makes perfect decisions" lets hope NZHRA continues to make perfect decisions then!!
Nope - I would just expect them to use the mandate they were given by being elected, and getting on with the job of collectively making smart decisions, in the best interests of the NZHRA.

Otherwise - why have this structure?

Nodz

P.S Election campaigns and promises???? Holy crap... how may U turns has this Government made???

Nominal
10-27-2010, 06:31 PM
LVVTA is an incorporated society as well.

Its consitution/rules are here (http://www.societies.govt.nz/pls/web/DBSIFRAME.I_Init?p_access_no=77CCCA3C767288E5AA96D 5E84F8075B9&p_receipt_number=14474818&p_sequence_number=1&p_reference_number=599508&p_called_from=ALLTAB|doc1)

(I think this link will work)

ForEverFour
10-27-2010, 06:44 PM
I can only imagine how long winded, narrow minded and screwed up things would be if the NZHRA membership were consulted with regards to the sale of The Hobby Car Manual.

The point is that it is the BEST decision that NZHRA has made in order to maintain the low volume aftermarket industry we have. With approx 3000 members in NZHRA how much of a viable force or voice are we when dealing with the government?

The private or community organised events throughout New Zealand that attract thousands of participants and spectators, tv, radio and newspaper interest has done more for rodding in the last ten years than the NZHRA has. I might add however, that this in no way is a swipe of the truly passionate people that make up the NZHRA from Executive Committee level to club level. But, the current structure has not enabled NZHRA to move forward and grow rodding as the numbers of these higher profile events would suggest.

Therefore, if the government were to make things harder for the low volume hobby car builder - how would the stats of NZHRA stack up when dealing with the government? We aint drop in the ocean in comparison to the entire automotive - new car and aftermarket and low volume industry in New Zealand.

LVVTA buying the Hobby Car Manual makes perfect sense as they have numbers. The LVVTA is made up of representation from the following:

New Zealand Hot Rod Association
Sports Car Club of New Zealand
NZ Motor Caravan Association
Vintage Car Club of NZ
Kiwi Trikers
Constructors Car Club
Vehicle Association of NZ for People with Disabilities
Component Car Manufacturer's of New Zealand

If each entity/association had at least 3000 members then that equates to 24,000 members collectively under one umbrella - LVVTA - surely that makes a great deal more sense for you all to see that LVVTA is like the SEMA of the USA which brings me to this point: How well do you think a 3000 member association could combat whats happening in the USA right now:

http://www.carinitiative.com

I dont want to argue or fight about this with any one or disrespect NZHRA or any association but we need to think about the bigger picture and take a more collective approach to this.

prognini
10-27-2010, 07:02 PM
I havent clicked on that link,Greg..but if California is anything to go buy....

LIFESTYLZ
10-27-2010, 07:31 PM
Well now the fly has truely landed in the soup so to speak.

If you saw the news tonight and all the talk of uncertified cars
and how the govt needs to step in and FIX the problem by doing
what they are doing in OZ. eg get tough on all modified car laws.

Lets see how LVVTA deal with this "hysteria".

And it only took one fatal accident to bring this to a "media" head.

Admin
10-27-2010, 07:49 PM
I think you'll find that LVVTA are already dealing with this situation with much work going on behind the scenes and much already achieved,...many new laws are aimed directly at modified vehicles...especially the jappas and the young men and idiots who drive them....our fraternity gets hit by this wave of new law making but LVVTA has defused the impact of this on us individually, as a hobby and as an industry by creating room for us through special dispensation and exemptions....a few recent examples of their work

Emissions Laws brought in....exemptions for our hot rod modified vehicles
Noise Laws brought in.....exemptions for our hot rod modified vehicles
Anti-cruising laws brought in.....wriggle room created for our fraternity
General modified vehicle laws....written with recognition for hot rods
More laws coming with much work in progress by LVVTA and the Tech Committee.
I don't see or hear the sky falling!.... there's much to be thankful for and this latest move will create a more stable platform and wider base to protect our rights and freedoms from being impacted from more draconian laws put forward to control the anti-social behaviour of troublemaking punks in our communities.

The dork who escaped jail time today was operating outside the law by driving an uncertified vehicle....just the same as the hunter who killed an innocent camper over this past weekend was breaking the law by hunting illegally.....the outcomes are the same...tragic loss of innocent lives.....
Let the debate reign...
In my opinion more education is needed for youth to understand certification and adhere to it rather than flaunt it.
NZHRA's motto is Dedicated to Safety
Young punks seem to be Dedicated to Mayhem and Anarchy....no magic bullet....not an easy or overnight fix

LIFESTYLZ
10-27-2010, 08:00 PM
Well let's hope the media don't start a stirring campaign.
It is their best interests to create hysteria.
Just saying, watch them closely.

Admin
10-27-2010, 08:04 PM
Correct.....as an analogy...the debate over the shot camper included the media asking the deerstalkers association if they needed tougher laws...the reply was no....the right laws are already in place...stick to them and all's well...break them and suffer the consequences....they're calling for manslaughter charges for the offending hunter...same should have applied for the young driver in my opinion...

GBH
10-27-2010, 08:33 PM
Noddy - what "mandate" do NZHRA have, and then you rubbish the notion of elected officials honouring promises, seems to me, you like arguing both sides of the issue at the same time

Greg - LVVTA already exists and is doing a fine job dealling with all the issues of new transport rules and thier effect on us, (as much as an i can tell without any inside knowledge) - however none of this explains why "selling" the manual to LVVTA is so benificial, as you appear to suggest - i understand that the manual was not specifically mentioned in legislation and therefore this needed to be addressed - but regardless of who owns it this will still have to be changed in law regardless, so why is it's "ownership" so important? is being NZHRA's such a problem to Land Transport that they would not change the law till it's handed over? that would really start more questions!

NZHRA may well have done the right thing but the official statement is supperficial in explaining why it was neccesary nor the benefits, how exactly does the change make the manual so much more important to LVVTA and us?

Noddy
10-27-2010, 10:25 PM
Noddy - what "mandate" do NZHRA have, and then you rubbish the notion of elected officials honouring promises, seems to me, you like arguing both sides of the issue at the same time
I guess you didn't see my humour about politicians breaking promises??? :D I didn't think I was rubbishing them.... just having a laugh out loud.

Right or wrong, I believe NZHRA Execustives do have the mandate from their members to make the best decisions for the Association - that is why they are put in that position by the members. Just my opinion, others may have theirs.... so be it.

Nodzster


;)

Darcy Dog
10-28-2010, 09:23 AM
I also noticed that NZHRA is heavily involved with the "Chrome at Hampton Park" event next year but they are not sanctioning the event. There is no apparent mention of cars requiring to be certified.

Is this a new enlightened NZHRA who are trying to lever back the large numbers of " declaration cert, and no stock sticker" cars that turn up in huge numbers at Beach Hop, Americana, MCM etc.

Maybe with their relinquishing of the Hobby Car Manual involvement, they may well feel that the zealous need to have only certified cars at NZHRA events could have worked against them in attracting participants in the recent past.

Rodbolt
10-28-2010, 09:42 AM
Most of the points Greg makes are easily valid as far as the numbers of people countable in a lobby group go. No doubt about that, so true. I think most of us agree, also, from past interesting debates in this forum, that the NZHRA is not suited to the lobby group or umbrella organisation task, and it could never have been intended to be so in the present environment. So the LVVTA as a leader group is a good move (the only one we have) and as the organisation gains credibility so too will the Hobby Car enthusiasts voice. We hope..............

And thats the point I was trying to make. Now that all the good eggs are in the LVVTA basket, the NZHRA has absolutely nothing left from which to assume a position of any strength whatsoever. We are entirely at the mercy or advantages of the LVVTA in every respect. Powerless. Maybe that was the idea........................

What is there to stop the "owners" of the LVVTA deciding that the best interests of all are served by incorporating the LVVTA and their Hobby Car Manual into the LTA? The clear answer to that one is, nothing, and for the LTA it eliminates a "thorn in the side", and for the LVVTA people, a nice Govt. job and maybe even a car to drive. Can't happen?........

3 Windows
10-28-2010, 12:09 PM
I agree with Rodbolt, slippery slope.
The only thing as I see it, that the NZHRA now has is fender exemptions, why not go the whole hog, sell the rights to that, and have the LVVTA run the whole shooting works.
seems to me, the NZHRA should have commented to the members on something so important. Me, just about ready to stick bike fenders on the Highboy, and just hang with the club mates.

After listening to a phone conversation at a high profile rod builders show room, when collecting my front end, it is not a case of electing new executive, there are a select few who are not elected executive that have too much control. The whole thing is rotten to the core as I see it.

Time for a whole new structure.?

Admin
10-28-2010, 12:34 PM
Here's some clarification from LVVTA head honcho Tony Johnson.....this may help improve understanding of this


LVVTA writes the rules (which are formally approved by NZTA),


LVVTA - by formal written agreement with NZTA - owns the rules (the whole LVV system from the LVV Code down is the intellectual property of the LVVTA),


however it is NZTA's responsibility to enforce the rules (the LVV Certifiers are appointed by NZTA, therefore only NZTA can take action against them).

The Hobby Car Manual is an integral and essential part of those rules. It makes sense for LVVTA to own the HCTM because:

(1): Rules are LVVTA's core business whereas rules not NZHRA's core business; (2) LVVTA has a relationship with NZTA whereas NZHRA doesn't have a relationship with NZTA; and
(3): I believe that NZHRA wants to use their resources to get on deal with their core business of promoting hot rodding.

Noddy
10-28-2010, 02:27 PM
I also noticed that NZHRA is heavily involved with the "Chrome at Hampton Park" event next year but they are not sanctioning the event. There is no apparent mention of cars requiring to be certified.

Is this a new enlightened NZHRA who are trying to lever back the large numbers of " declaration cert, and no stock sticker" cars that turn up in huge numbers at Beach Hop, Americana, MCM etc.

Maybe with their relinquishing of the Hobby Car Manual involvement, they may well feel that the zealous need to have only certified cars at NZHRA events could have worked against them in attracting participants in the recent past.
Just to stir the pot.... :D

I can't speak for other event organisers, but we respect and work with the NZHRA. We have given them a FREE high profile trade stand every year for the past 9 years... We don't want anything in return.

I think that we all want the same thing - to positively promote our lifetstyle to the masses and get more people to participate. That is good for the NZHRA, sponsors, public and organisers...

Have fun!

Nodz

Rodbolt
10-28-2010, 03:36 PM
Paul, thanks for that from Tony Johnson and explains what the original release set out. Just one more question, then.

So, was the HCTM wholly owned by NZHRA, and if so, it is, presumably, wholly owned by LVVTA ?

And on the answer to this, thats enough from me on this topic. Another good, rational and informative discussion, thanks folks!!

Admin
10-28-2010, 04:59 PM
From Tony.....
Yes, the HCTM was wholly owned by NZHRA, and is now wholly owned by LVVTA. No other person or party had any share of its ownership either now or while it was with NZHRA.

scumdog
10-28-2010, 05:28 PM
Maybe with their relinquishing of the Hobby Car Manual involvement, they may well feel that the zealous need to have only certified cars at NZHRA events could have worked against them in attracting participants in the recent past.

Deltas have gained members who wanted to join because just because being a member of the club gave them access to so many more events.

The reason so many one-day car-shows and similar non-sanctioned events are so well patronised is (I reckon) mainly because those who are NOT rod club members have so few events they can attend...

Noddy
10-28-2010, 05:33 PM
The reason so many one-day car-shows and similar non-sanctioned events are so well patronised is (I reckon) mainly because those who are NOT rod club members have so few events they can attend...
Do you really think that?? Things must certainly be different down in the Mainland :D

During the "season" there is a choice of events every weekend for non-club members - and this includes night cruises, breakfast runs etc.

Nodz

P.S BANG!!!!! Did you have a quiet day today????

scumdog
10-28-2010, 05:46 PM
Do you really think that?? Things must certainly be different down in the Mainland :D

During the "season" there is a choice of events every weekend for non-club members - and this includes night cruises, breakfast runs etc.

Nodz

P.S BANG!!!!! Did you have a quiet day today????

Yeah, less unsanctioned events down here and they're one-day htings and apart from Amercarna there are no unsanctioned runs - you know the 'proper' two/three day hot rod runs.

And yep, one hell of a bang when it went off - watch the news, I may be in the background somewhere.. :D

Noddy
10-28-2010, 05:52 PM
Yeah, less unsanctioned events down here and they're one-day htings and apart from Amercarna there are no unsanctioned runs - you know the 'proper' two/three day hot rod runs.

And yep, one hell of a bang when it went off - watch the news, I may be in the background somewhere.. :D
I hope you were wearing your uniform!!!! :eek:

And I'm sure Stare will be pleased to know that MCM isn't a PROPER Run :D

Nodzster

gudgyz
10-29-2010, 07:31 PM
I hope the $50K (how many pieces of silver is that) is spent well!

scumdog
10-29-2010, 09:15 PM
I hope you were wearing your uniform!!!! :eek:

And I'm sure Stare will be pleased to know that MCM isn't a PROPER Run :D

Nodzster

OK, fair 'nuf ya got me with MCM :D - but it's the exception, most other events are one-day only things.

Pay up
Park up
Talk up

Then maybe get a prize.

and then go home.

Hot Rod Todd
10-30-2010, 02:21 PM
which is different to being stopped for speeding around Balclutha

Then its

pull up
talk up
excuses up
pay up
demerits up

1932tub
10-31-2010, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE=scumdog]Yeah, less unsanctioned events down here and they're one-day htings and apart from Amercarna there are no unsanctioned runs - you know the 'proper' two/three day hot rod runs.


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